Talk:ZPack - Random Maps for ZDoom

Notability
With due respect to the designers, all of whom probably work harder on each map than I ever have on the wiki... does anyone else find it strange that we don't have separate episode articles for The Lost Episodes, a commercial release, but we do have them for this WAD, which is just another ZDoom entry in /idgames? Ryan W 18:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, now that I think of it, I find this odd, myself. In fact, now that I have the Requiem pages done, I thought about making pages for the Lost Episodes.  I don't have the book, so I can't provide any story-related content from it, but I can certainly provide the usual gameplay information (or at least the secrets. ;)  Failing that, I also considered doing pages for either Community Chest 3 (oh, the hubris!) or Mars War, but I digress.  Either way, though, the contrast is certainly quite strange. The Green Herring 00:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Just my explanation of my thinking when I wrote the first draft of the articles. I was going off of this statement regarding WADs in the policies and guidelines on notability: "One article per map, plus one summary page for each multi-level file (as with the episodes of the classic series)."  To me, this statement is ambiguous.  It says multi-level file as if referring to separate wads but then episodes of the classic series which are absolutely not individual files.  So, I made a guess, assuming that at the worst if other wiki editors did not like it they would merge things together.  So that all is up to the regular editors of the wiki to decide.


 * As far as my personal opinion goes, I don't see a real problem with letting wads which have arguably separate episodes (like ZPack, with 3 sets of 10 maps, definitely has unique episodes) have separate episode articles. Maybe some certain criteria, like how I put (ZPack) in the article titles for all the episodes, needs to be met, but that's about it.  72.88.84.109 22:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you're right about that statement being ambiguous. It was probably written before we had good examples of "summary" pages for third-party releases (they either had a list of levels and little else, or huge sections about plot and authors with no links to maps).


 * Rereading my comment above, I made it sound like I wanted to merge the ZPack episode articles into the main article, but that's not the case &mdash; I can see merit in both approaches. For example, IMHO, Knee-Deep in the Dead has evolved into a fairly solid and self-consistent summary of things pertaining to that episode and only to that episode.  On the other hand, 99 percent of PWAD articles are so short (because they don't really have storylines and their development wasn't discussed with the general public) that three episodes could easily be merged without creating an unwieldy article.  In that case I would suggest an exception for commercial releases, splitting the actual lists of levels into a subsidiary article, because the introductory discussion and context is so long (similar to what Wikipedia does, or did do before the subsidiary article was deleted for non-notability).


 * At this point, the whole issue may be a minor one, because few high-profile WADs actually use the Doom 1 episode structure. However, if we are really going to give every PWAD an article, then we should also ask how such a guideline would apply to WADs whose episodes are defined by scripted events, or even by text screens alone.    Ryan W 22:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, what to do going forward basically goes beyond me as I'm not, nor do I plan to be, a long term contributor. I just wanted to get what I knew about ZPack down since I was having a really slow night (with just an oh so tiny hint of insomnia).  Guidelines and standards are good and all that, so go right on ahead and figure that out whenever.


 * I guess I might do some articles on the ZPack levels too, if I had that tool that makes the PNGs of the map layout. 72.88.84.109 23:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, fair enough.


 * Just a note: it's not a sin to create a map article that you know is incomplete. It just looks that way because TheGreenHerring has to add so many things to meet his own standards for a stub.  :>


 * You can download the map layout tool here. Of course, if you're like 99.7% of the human population and don't know anything about scripting languages, you might find Python intimidating (I do and I still think it is).  That's okay.  Write what you have time to write, and eventually someone else will read it and try to make it better.    Ryan W 00:26, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Custom things mapping
Decently documented DECORATE lumps in the main resource file ZDCC_RES.WAD as well as individual level WADs allowed me to compile the following custom things mapping file for DMMPST (TSV format): 0	3120	Afrit	Monster Resource WAD#Monsters 0	30100	Bloodfiend 0	3333	Bruiser Demon	Bruiser Demon (Beastiary) 0	29123	Catharsi 0	30128	Cybruiser 0	30112	Diabloist 0	30115	Death Incarnate 0	30116	Hades Sphere 0	29999	Infernal Spider 0	3205	Lord of Heresy	Monster Resource WAD#Monsters 0	30101	Lurker 0	19999	Mini-spider 0	3205	Plasma Zombie	Monster Resource WAD#Zombies 0	3126	Rocket Zombie	Monster Resource WAD#Zombies 0	3109	Satyr	Monster Resource WAD#Monsters 0	3126	Shadow 0	3117	Soul Harvester	Monster Resource WAD#Monsters 0	30110	Spider-Demolisher 0	22099	Suicide Bomber 0	30666	Terminator 0	16555	Evil super shotgun marine	zdoom:Classes:MarineSSG 0	16556	Evil plasma gun marine	zdoom:Classes:MarinePlasma 0	30667	T667 Two zombie 0	30668	T667 Two zombie 0	30669	T667 Two zombie 7	6002	Data log 7	8666	Orakel 7	13579	Teleporter battery Please let me know any improvements/corrections. And here's how you can help with mapping files for other WADs. --Xymph (talk) 04:04, 13 July 2018 (CDT)
 * 1) class	thingID	wikiname	wikilink

Soundtrack
Trying to puzzle out the soundtrack for this. First, music credits from the text file: This list however is incomplete. Then metadata for songs. Based on that, the detective work to identify most songs should be simplified. --Gez (talk) 05:57, 16 July 2018 (CDT)
 * Albino_Rhino aka farlowj
 * 3D Realms, Duke Nukem 3D
 * Attic Entertainment, Realms of Arkania
 * Banshee, Painkiller
 * Epic Megagames, UT2003
 * John Romero, Unreleased Doom Music
 * Mark Garnet
 * Monolith, Blood
 * Parralax Software, Descent
 * Russel Pearson, World Carnage Champ.
 * Sam Wolff & Dave Phaneuf
 * Simon "SlayeR" Judd
 * Sivak Drac
 * Square, Final Fantasy
 * Xaser
 * E1M1 (M_CPTT01.wad): lump name STLTHFRG ("stealth frag"?), Ogg Vorbis format, no useful metadata
 * E1M2 (M_PHOBUS3.wad): lump name D_PHBS3, MIDI format, metadata: Star Fox / The Planet Fortuna / By: Sivak Drac
 * E1M3 (M_VTMAP.wad): lump name D_VTMAP, MIDI format, metadata: Copyright © 2001 by Glacius
 * E1M4 (M_SOLOUWSF.WAD): lump name D_SOLOBT, MIDI format, metadata: Quick MUS->MID ! for WinTex, "Between Levels" with some instruments changed
 * E1M5 (M_SITEX.WAD): lump name D_SITEX, MP3 format, metadata: E1M1 / Classic Doom 3 / Sonic Clang / 2005
 * E1M6 (M_ICYGLACY.WAD): lump name D_ICY2X, MUS format, no metadata at all (MUS format).
 * E1M7 (M_TNICK.WAD): lump name D_TNICK, MIDI format, metadata: Future Military Conquests / by Lee Jackson / Copyright (c) 1996 Lee Jackson
 * E1M8 (M_VAD02+03.wad): lump name D_VAD02, MIDI format, metadata shows conversion from MUS. "Grand Design" by Simon Judd.
 * E1M9 (M_VAD02+03.wad): lump name D_VAD03 and D_VAD03B, MIDI format both. First metadata: (c) 1999 Marc A. Pullen. Second metadata: Death Wind (Climax Remix) / By Jay Reichard (silentzora@yahoo.com) / Original Melody- Death Wind / From F-Zero
 * E1M0 (M_VAD04.wad): lump name D_VAD04, MUS format, "Bye Bye American Pie".
 * E2M1 (M_PHOBUS.WAD): lump name D_PHOBUS, MIDI format, metadata: By Dave Phaneuf & Sam Wolf, Generated by NoteWorthy Composer
 * E2M2 (M_INSANE.WAD): lump names D_INSANE and D_INSAN2, MIDI format both, no useful metadata either. First is Venus Atmospheric Lab theme, second is Neptune Storage Depot theme, both from Descent.
 * E2M3 (M_T667TWO.WAD): lump name D_T667TW, MIDI format, metadata: Baked Goods / by Lee Jackson / Copyright (c) 1996 Lee Jackson
 * E2M4 (M_ICY666.WAD): lump name D_ICY666, MUS format, no metadata at all (MUS format). Sounds like a remix of "Bye Bye American Pie" or its inspiration "Them Bones" by Alice in Chains
 * E2M5 (M_FANBOY.WAD): lump name D_FANBOY, MIDI format, no useful metadata (just some NoteWorthy Composer default strings; I don't think "Symphony Template" is the actual title of this piece)
 * E2M6 (M_TECU.wad): lump name D_TECU, MOD module format, metadata: culturebag / (c) by virgill '97 (source)
 * E2M7 (M_T667.WAD): lump name D_T667, MIDI format, metadata: (C) Copyright © 1996 by Michael (CBLOOD10.MID from Blood)
 * E2M8 (M_ICYTNT.wad): lump name D_ICYTNT, MP3 format, no useful metadata (ID3v2 tag containing only "eng")
 * E2M9 (M_T667BOSS.WAD): lump names D_TBOSS1 and D_TBOSS2, MIDI format both. The first reminds me of Shadowcaster music (starts like g_temple.xmi, but differs after), perhaps same composer (Marc Schaefgen); metadata shows it was converted from XMI so it does most likely come from a game. No useful metadata for the second.
 * E2M0 (M_PHOBUS2.WAD): lump name D_PHBS2 and D_PHBS2B, MIDI format both, metadata for the first: StarFox - Titania Stage       -Mark Jansen-, metadata for the second: StarFox - Titania Boss       -Mark Jansen-
 * E3M1 (M_SAW02.wad): lump name D_SAW02, MOD module format, metadata: (C) Terminal Reality
 * E3M2 (M_KEKS01.wad): lump name D_E2M8, MUS format, "Nobody Told Me About id"
 * E3M3 (M_STEREO.WAD): lump name D_STEREO, MIDI format, metadata: Battle of the Gods
 * E3M4 (M_ICYTUX.WAD): lump name D_ICYTUX, MIDI format, metadata: Alice In Chains -- Facelift -- "We Die Young"
 * E3M5 (M_SOLOTSU.wad): lump names D_HN7TSU and D_77ESPR, MIDI format both, metadata first: Iifa Tree / Nobuo Uematsu - tracked by Jeff Copperthite, metadata second: Esper Battle / By Hitoshi Sakimoto
 * E3M6 (M_13THHOUR.wad): lump name CHAOS_X, IT module format, metadata: "Chaos Theory" | "(c) Masters of Insanity" (which means Xaser AFAIK)
 * E3M7 (M_VAD01.wad): lump name D_VAD01, MIDI format, metadata shows it's been converted from MUS. "The Depths" by Simon Judd.
 * E3M8 (M_SAW01.WAD): lump name D_SAW01, metadata: Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin - Crucifix Held Close by Jayster / Sequenced by Jayster / Composed by Michiru Yamane & Yuzo Koshiro
 * E3M9 (M_ICYMINI.wad): lump name D_ICYMNI, MUS format, "Sign of Evil"
 * E3M0 (M_XASECT.wad): lump names D_XASECT, D_XAKLAY, and D_XABELL, MIDI format all. No useful metadata in first and third. Metadata for second: Copyright © 2004 by fatal. First is main theme from Hocus Pocus, second is Klaymen's theme from The Neverhood, third is probably an original composition by Xaser.
 * TITLEMAP and misc (TITLEMAP.wad): lump names D_DM2TTL, D_DM2INT, and D_BUNNY, MIDI format first two, no useful metadata in either (instrument list for first, "WinJammer Demo" for second). Last is MUS format, "The End of DOOM".

Subarticles and improving the page
As already discussed in the past, this article is inconsistent with most of the other mod pages found on wiki. I understand that it was written a very long time ago (2008 according to one of the subpages), but well, I think now it's time to finally fix it and bring it up to the same standards of quality as the rest of the articles.

As shown here for example, I would deem most of the information besides the map list as being superfluous. The second paragraph does not really reveal anything unique or special about the project because it simply details a development cycle that's common among all community projects of all kinds - at best, the main article could briefly mention that the episodic structure was not decided upon until many of the maps had already been submitted, as that's the only piece of information that seems at all relevant to me. The third paragraph on the other hand mentions some specific details about individual maps, and I feel like that content is best added to the individual map pages themselves (it is worth noting that at the time of the creation of that article the individual pages for each map did not yet exist), especially considering there are sections called "Trivia" or "Inspiration and development" which are perfect for that sort of thing. Additionally, I find the listing of every individual contributor in the article to be by itself rather superfluous: after all, that's what the .txt file on /idgames is for, and other mod pages do not have that, either, or at least not to the same extent.

So, if there is no opposition to this idea, I would like to rework the page to make it follow the same standards as the other articles, which I can get to doing in the coming days. Going forward I would like to do the same thing regarding pages such as Project Einherjar which in my opinion also do not need to have sub-articles like they do. --Dynamo128 (talk) 14:51, 3 February 2021 (CST)


 * For a no-objection clause in more elaborate proposal like this, I really think you should allow more than two days of response time. Editors/admins don't always have time to react so quickly, or formulate their opinion on a proposal. I don't know what an appropriate minimum would be, but I guess at least a week. And in this case, since the merges were already discussed before but not performed, hasty action seems certainly inappropriate. My 2 cents for now, I haven't had time to think about all parts of the above yet either. --Xymph (talk) 16:11, 5 February 2021 (CST)


 * Fair enough, I had an off the record conversation with Quasar about it and he did tell me to wait at least a few days, which I figured would be enough since the changes done, in the end, aren't that radical: the information relayed is pretty much exactly the same as before (I only left out some frankly superfluous lines, such as "Episode 3 is where the player travels to Hell to settle the score once and for all", which, well, describes almost any E3 ever, so I see no point in mentioning that specifically), only presented in a fashion that more closely follow all the other articles on the wiki. I will definitely keep this in mind in case I ever rework pages that would require a much more thorough re-organization (Demon Eclipse and NeoDoom come to mind), but in the case of ZPack, I felt it was a fairly straightforward and simple change that I think shouldn't prove problematic. I guess the main question is whether the contributors list should be added back in, but that's easily done if necessary. For such cases in the future I'll likely wait for admins' opinions first, as they are more convoluted. --Dynamo128 (talk) 16:27, 5 February 2021 (CST)


 * Well, off-wiki conversations aren't readable by other editors. ;) Generally, discussions and decision processes on the wiki can take (quite) some time -- see Central Processing or the RFCs -- and the pace has occasionally been labeled as glacial. That said, I agree the ZPack episode articles were small enough that they fit well within the main article.
 * The Project Einherjar episode articles, on the other hand, appear to have sufficient and distinct information to remain on their own. Impie put a lot of effort into them, and while that itself shouldn't prohibit changes if those benefit the wiki's goals, but I don't think overhauls in that area should be attempted without more extensive discussion, ideally with Impie's input.
 * Meanwhile, there are sooo many stubby WAD overview articles where reorganization effort is better spent (Demon Eclipse yes, not sure about NeoDoom), that I'd leave Project Einherjar alone just for that reason alone.
 * Also, please remember to use the mlg or ml templates. --Xymph (talk) 05:41, 6 February 2021 (CST)